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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: projects incubated by the incubator PMC
Date Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:15:04 GMT
On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 18:58, Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
> > Adam Jack contacted me personally just
> > to shoot the shit about Ruper and I told him his code would be welcome
> > in Maven.
> I was hoping that Apache was somehow Utopian and folks could co-operate,
> bury ego, and work for the greater good of softwaredom, yada yada. When you
> invited the Ruper code to become part of Wagon in Maven, you clearly
> explained that certain folks at Apache would not feel welcome there. 

Feel free to cite any part of the email I sent you that says anything
about excluding anyone. You have my full permission. Even me with my
fiercest of critisisms couldn't stop anyone from participating. The
truth of the matter is that those bitching and whining most have done
the least to try and cooperate.

> That is
> disappointingly limiting to me, since in my world view, community is as
> valuable as code, and we are trying to satisfy repository@apache not less.
> Naive, or not, I still hold out hope of working with as many people as
> practical.

In my world view the quality of code is paramount and the community is a
natural by product of the process that made good code.

You can have all the community you want but it's not going to make poor
code any better. Communities form of their own accord and that is a 
good thing. Communities based on artifice which are used to prop up code
that should otherwise die a natural death is bad.

> I think it is great that Wagon is being developed as actively as it is, but
> it is far from mature & it/Ruper have different approaches to solving the
> problem. Introducing Ruper into Wagon or Wagon into Ruper, at this point,
> would probably confuse each's design & simply server to dissatisfy both
> teams/goals. I figure Ruper deserves a shot equal to the one you've granted
> to Wagon.
> It seems to me that having Ruper available, gives Apache another shot at
> solving the problem, and if/when a time for an equal opportunity merge
> arose, I'd be game to cooperate with it.

Although I find it somewhat suspect that code that has been rejected by
other Apache projects is now coming through the incubator Wagon/Ruper is
not the issue. The larger issue in my mind is the path of code through
the incubator. I honestly don't understand the notion of letting code
flounder around in the incubator indefinitely as serving any greater


Jason van Zyl

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society

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