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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: projects incubated by the incubator PMC
Date Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:47:21 GMT
On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 18:33, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> There is no reason for a project to have a final destination until
> it has to go somewhere other than incubator, at which point it can
> decide whether it wants to be a TLP (calling for a board vote) or
> part of an existing project (calling for that project's pmc to vote).
> Maybe we should have a six month limit on incubation, where the
> result is promote or punt.
> We have no way to measure the worthiness of a project before it has
> even started

- test coverage
- clarity of documentation
- established user base

And those are three criterion that can easily be measured and I think
that is a good start. Something that's far easier to pinpoint than the
vague term "community". The three above listed criterion are things that
can easily be faked. Tapestry satisfied these quite easily. 

> , and generally speaking we are MUCH MUCH MUCH better off
> if a project gets started in Apache rather than on sourceforge.

How so? I'm genuinely interested in why you think so.

> I don't care if there is some overlap with Wagon, nor do I care for
> any further discussion about which one is better -- if I can't find
> some objective criteria for evaluating software, then I obviously
> don't need that software. Once I need it, I can figure out for myself
> which one is better -- I don't need someone to assume that for me.
> It is easier for Apache to support both projects than to arbitrarily
> choose between the two.

It wouldn't bother me at all for other projects to come here that are
overlapping partially or completely that's not my point. My point is the
incubator shouldn't be a source code limbo.

How did the decision come about that a complete path for incubation not
be requisite as part of a proposal? Didn't the incubator start with
Tapestry in which successful incubation meant the movement to a final

So theoretically, given the current situation, any number of codebases
could land here and sit indefinitely? That we are actually encouraging
people to use Apache's incubator as an alternative to SourceForge?

> ....Roy
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Jason van Zyl

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society

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