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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: [Possible Incubation] Apache Repo
Date Sat, 08 Nov 2003 21:59:57 GMT
On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 16:07, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 05:09, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > 
> > Ok, I read what you said and we'll chalk it up to miscommunication and a
> > misunderstanding. I am admittedly obstinate and can be unflexible, I
> > never meant the level of animosity to grow to the point that it did. I
> > sincerely apologize.
> I sincerely appreciate it, thanks.
> >>What I did see was massive duplication of efforts in Apache and 
> >>elsewhere that I did not want to accept.
> >>
> >>There is Gump, why POM?
> >>There is Ant, why Jelly?
> >>There is Centipede cents, why Maven plugins?
> >>
> >>Simply that was the decision of the Maven developers, ok.
> > 
> > We definitely made those decisions and I think you have to look at what
> > the outcome was. 
> Maven has made a big result, though I doubt that it has been because of 
> how it's implemented, rather because of what it enables users to do. 

Of course, though ultimately the user doesn't care whether it's a static
hairball (a term I'm lifting from Paul Hammant) or a elegant component
solution. I have readily admitted to the current incarnation of Maven is
teh furthest thing from elegance.

> If 
> the descriptor would had been the Gump one instead, I really don't think 
> it would have changed the outcome, nor if Ant had been used instead.

Well, people have different opinions and that's going to happen

> > Anyone can search through all
> > the Apache archives and see that I made no huge lobbying effort to shove
> > Maven down anyone's throat. I even asked that Jon Steven's cease and
> > desist when hailed Maven as the grand replacement on Jakarta.
> Again AFAIK this is correct. From what I have seen and perceived, your 
> position has never been about pushing things down others' throats.
> ...
> >>But please leave me the possibility to have a different opinion on this 
> >>way of doing things.
> > 
> > It is often that I have noted to people that Maven is not the solution
> > for them. Lot's of folks on the Maven list have been met with my
> > responses to find a more suitable tool for their task. I have in fact
> > pointed them at Ant and Centipede.
> What I meant is not about implementation, but about doing things 
> collaboratively rather than in competition.

Hopefully this can start with the repository effort. We've got Ruper,
Greebo and Wagon (Michal's refactoring of existing artifact code in
Maven). Maybe the result of this could become a top-level project in


Jason van Zyl

In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
  -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society

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