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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Date Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:16:51 GMT
On 30/07/2003 19:43 Aaron Bannert wrote:

> What kind of guidelines would you like to see?
> What specific activities do you consider counterproductive, and how do
> you propose we improve them?

As much as your suggestions drive me towards a direction I'm already 
fully aware of, I think this situation is very comparable with the start 
of a new code-related project. If there's no code to play with, there's 
only a slim chance a community will form. I reckon much 'code' is 
already present within the Incubator project, still people do find it 
quite unobvious to start playing with it, because of its distributed 
character perhaps, or the unclear overall design. Much of the Incubator 
documents remain unfinished, which indeed creates a nice work area for 
people caring about the Incubator project. OTOH, the way the Incubator 
is being put forward happens to be very demotivational, especially for 
people who are already involved in various other ASF related efforts and 
find themselves being dragged into the Incubator project only 
circumstantial. There's a certain tendency to downplay ongoing 
incubation efforts if they are not fully executioned from within the 
reigns of the Incubator PMC, and one can get sick of hearing he should 
help the PMC instead of the incubating project. Don't underestimate the 
social aspect of all this. I know the Incubator is important for the 
ASF, but that doesn't mean one must become a committer of it or PMC 
member if he wants to help an incubating project.

The good thing of all this is that, by now, it's becoming crystal-clear 
(at least to me), that the Incubator project should really be a library 
of guidelines and nothing more. Since I'm much more of a hands-on guy 
rather than a rules builder, I'm finding it hard to focus on rules 
rather than on the problem at hand (= XMLBeans' incubation). This 
shouldn't be a problem if rules builders cooperate rather than point 
fingers, and someone tries to transcribe the efforts of the hand-on guys 
into a pragmatical set of rules. I'm very grateful to see Berin 
apparently trying to do so.

I'd rather collaborate rather than just comment, but I don't want to 
raise expectations which I can't meet after being admitted. Modesty.

> (If you don't have CVS commit, ask for it. In the mean time, post
> patches if you see something that needs changing. The fastest way
> to get commit to *any* ASF project is to post so many patches to
> the development list that the committers can't keep up and eventually
> just give you direct access. :)

I'm fully aware of all that. I'm not a karma whore however, since I'm 
already pretty much occupied with my current karma. ;-)

Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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