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From Steven Noels <>
Subject Re: Proposal for Lenya
Date Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:36:49 GMT
Michael Wechner wrote:

> Dear Incubator List
> Here's our proposal for _Lenya_ (plz see below), a Content Management 
> System based on Cocoon. The proposal can also be viewed as HTML at:

[cc'ed to cocoon-dev where Cocoon PMC lives, which will ultimatelly 
decide whether Lenya can become a Cocoon sub-project - read for background info]

Some remarks and initial thoughts, mostly based on [BT] (belly 
thoughts), so please don't take too serious or feel offended:

* IMHO, the ASF as a whole has a focus on generic 'lower-level' 
frameworks created to build a variety of applications or serve as a 
deployment container. I've been 'quite interested' (= understatement) in 
CMS frameworks for a long time already, but find it a domain where _one_ 
design doesn't necessarily fit _many_ use cases. I'm not saying the 
meta-generic framework which will address all use cases exists (or could 
be created), I'm just afraid the early design of Lenya might be based on 
a set of assumptions which will be hard to reverse/refactor when fresh 
blood comes into the project and new ideas arise. When I see 
"disentangle cms & publications", I get worried.

* A sh*tload of (even Cocoon-based) (half-baked) CMS solutions exist 
already, which might or might not be willing to join ASF in the future. 
What will happen if Lenya (nice name BTW) comes and claims that area? 
Will it be the reference ASF CMS tool? Can CMS be considered an area 
where the ASF wants to operate in, like Zope (CMF) is...? Or do we stick 
to supporting technology like servlet containers, http stacks, build 
tools ... I know there is no policy at ASF that states only one CMS 
project can exist under the ASF umbrella, but still there is only one 
JetSpeed, one Tomcat, one Cocoon, etc etc - I hope my point is clear.

* from what I read here [], there 
is extensive refactoring planned _before_ reaching 1.0, yet this is 
envisioned to be done as an incubating ASF (Cocoon sub-) project. I am 
wondering whether it wouldn't be better if this high-impact stuff is 
done before being moved to Apache (it also sounds a bit like the Lenya 
people take the move to ASF as a given, which might perhaps be a bit too 

* reviewing the archived commit messages, I wonder whether the proposed 
list of initial committers reflects reality, or that the list has been 
expanded so that we won't have the suspicion it is mainly one 
company/group working on the codebase (as is the case with right now).

* Xopus has recently had some troubles w.r.t. its licensing policy 
(open, not open, etc...) Are these things effectively solved right now? 
What part of Xopus will be inside Lenya CVS?

As I said, these are 'just remarks'. The fact I'm posting them means I 
actually care about this proposal, in a positive sense.

Best regards,

Steven Noels                  
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at  
stevenn at                stevenn at

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