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From Leo Simons <>
Subject Re: Bylaws duplication
Date Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:39:13 GMT
Conor MacNeill wrote:
> Let me propose a few questions to see if there is consensus:
> 1. Should there be a common set of bylaws to govern all Apache projects. 
> Individual projects could apply amendments, if necessary, to provide for 
> their own requirements. For example, Incubator itself may have unique 
> rules for project adoption decisions, etc.

I think so.

> 2. If there should be a common set of bylaws, where should it be 
> maintained? Should it live in Incubator or somwhere else. If so, where 
> do you think?

I think it would be good to have it @ incubator. My reasoning is that 
when incubator sends a project on to live on its own, it would be nice 
to have some "boilerplate" to base any kind of charter on. Similarly, 
the new PMCs would like such a boilerplate but it doesn't really exist :D

> As part of the Ant PMC establishment process, I have developed a draft 
> set of bylaws. The Ant PMC is currently considering these. I think the 
> Avalon PMC is also working on this (I think they are probably adopting a 
> quite different approach).

we're working on this stuff, slowly but steadily. We've had talks about 
the role of the PMC, basically building understanding about what the PMC 
should and should not do amongst ourselves (and in good dialogue with 
board peeps and asf veterans). We've just (finally!) got ourselves an 
agreement on how we want to handle PMC voting (the text is not online 
yet, but you can look at the avalon-dev archives; search for "PMC:VOTE", 
or just "PMC" in the subject for all the discussion that led to the text).

We've also gotten a draft charter in cvs at jakarta-avalon/src/proposal 
(it's been stale for a few weeks now....lots of things to do :D).

One thing I took away from conversation between Greg & Sam and avalon 
peeps (some of this on the avalon PMC list and thus not publicly 
archived I guess) is that it isn't really neccessary to be real formal 
about things like charter and bylaws; those things have mostly 
informational purpose. They serve as reference for agreements between 
the community members on how to "do their thing", as an indication to 
other peeps (like users, other asf projects and the board) about where 
the project is heading, etc etc.

IOW, there is no particular legal or ASF-steered organisational need for 
detailed bylaws. What really matters there are the actual *actions* 
undertaken by the ASF and its various organisational bodies and people, 
the board minutes, the official ASF bylaws, the ASF license, and any 
official activity by the ASF members (like electing the board I guess, 
but I dunno about all that as I'm not a member).

So the goal with a charter/bylaws/project guidelines is basically to 
define what your project is for, where it is heading (focussing can be 
real difficult ;), and how you want to do that within the apache spirit 
of consensus-oriented development. It is probably fruitless to define 
the "where" here, but we can certainly do the "how" once and then just 
incorporate by reference.

Avalon's been primarily working to get some consensus about which 
direction the community wants to take our project (y'all probably know 
avalon has gone in various directions over the years). The process is 
going rather well even without a reference charter in place. When we get 
our noses aligned again, I guess that's when the "where" will be written 
up, too.

> Anyway, I can contribute my draft if there is consensus to do that here.

I'd definately like to see it. I'll also try and get the attention of 
other avalon peeps so we can maybe get some creative juices flowing over 

Regardless, I think it would be nice to have some talks about the whole 
"PMC thing" so many of us are new to. We can have those talks here or 
over @ community@apache I guess. I'll find some time to try and share 
some experiences so far.


- Leo

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