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Subject Re: Ant 2 et al.
Date Tue, 09 Jul 2002 05:03:07 GMT
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 wrote:

> > Not sure I understand what you want. Changing the <project> element name 

> > in build.xml to use a different name you feel is more apropriate ? 
> > Are you kidding ? 
> No, I'm saying we need to look at what things are used for and name them 
> appropriately. <project> has very little to do with project details, and 
> more to do with <build> details. 

So your proposal is to rename <project> to <build>, add more 
procedural support and make it more scriptable ? 

> > A number of people ( usually those who -1 the adding of scripting 
> > elements) believe ant should be more 'descriptive', and not 
> > procedural. That's why it's called <project> - it is intended to
> > describe the project, including how to build various components.
> But what it does *NOW* has nothing to do with a project. Are you saying 
> there should be one file to describe project information like the cvs 
> repository, sub projects etc and that same file should contain all the 
> build processes?

The ant file can contain any information for which there is a datatype
or task.

There are projects who have <cvs> tags inside, or who have informations
about packages that needs to be downloaded ( tomcat for example ). 

The tasks that we have are moslty based on what people asked for
and contributed - <cvs> is one of the oldest tasks, it has been 
in ant before 1.0 ( I added it exactly because I wanted the build
file to describe how different sources are retrieved ). As a matter
of fact, the <get> task was originally used to download binaries
we needed to build tomcat. 

True, most people only want to describe how to build the project - 
and I see nothing wrong with it. But claiming that ant can only 
be used for that is pretty wrong. 

> > Of course, the biggest focus is on describing how to build various
> > targets - that's what people need the most. I agree we should add
> > more 'descriptive'/higher level  data types under <project>, maybe
> > what gump uses.
> Now you've gotta be kidding. Keep all the project info and all the build 
> processes in one file?

Not sure what you mean by 'build processes'. I agree that logic
and programming should go out of the build.xml and be done in java.

build.xml was designed to support a 'descriptive' model. It can
and is used in a procedural mode, but beeing able to keep all
the project info and descriptions is certainly one thing ant can do
easily, if it is an itch.

Many build.xml files are a mess, and I think most of that is due to 
use of ant as a script language instead of beeing more descriptive
and doing the logic in java and using higher level tasks.

> > And what's wrong with a gradual process ? Especially for important 
> things
> > I think we should take all the time it is needed. If something is 
> obvious
> > and all commiters are +1, it'll probably get added fast.
> Nothing's wrong with a gradual process, as long as it has a well defined 
> goal. This hasn't been the case with Ant 1 and Ant 2. I can't remember the 
> announcement being made that the Ant 2 proposals were being subsumed into 
> Ant 1 and all efforts should go there.

There is no Ant2 AFAIK. There are some proposals, with different names - 
but I don't remember any vote on a ant2 release. Ant1.6 is the next
release, and as far as I know all the efforts should go there.

And the goals are still listed and I don't remember any vote to 
change them. 

> > If there are doubts - then we should spend more time finding a better 
> > solution. 
> I'd be happy if there was a clear committed path forward. It seems that 
> some committers are interested in Ant 2, and others are keeping the status 
> quo. But where is the common direction?

The path is the same as allways - we just have a vote on a release, the 
main branch is open, and until a proposal gets voted as the next release
of ant, the direction is forward.


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