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From Jon Stevens <>
Subject Re: cvs commit: jakarta-ant/lib - New directory
Date Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:03:32 GMT
on 11/27/2000 6:50 PM, "Sam Ruby" <> wrote:

> I too am tired.  For example, I know from past experience that as a
> committer if I were to -1 this, my objection would be ignored.
> Furthermore, as a PMC member, I know that if I were to raise the issue
> there it would be ignored.

No, not ignored. A -1 has to have a good reason and/or replacement. Just
saying that you are going to -1 someone and not provide a way to accomplish
the end goal isn't good enough IMHO.

> Furthermore, I started to build this exact same JPAN type of thing.
> (Though to be fair - I was focusing more on the open source part of the
> equation, downloading the source and building a consistent set of binaries
> - a process that makes painfully obvious the ramifications of every
> projecting inserting their own set of binaries into the mix).  I quickly
> came to the conclusion that I would need the cooperation of virtually every
> project to get this off the ground.  Very few projects seemed concerned
> when I indicated that they will be incompatible to upcoming Ant or Xerces
> versions.

Why inflict major change on the projects? Of course you aren't going to get
a positive response if all of the projects have to completely re-write
everything they do just to work.

How about building a system that they can adopt as needed? My proposal went
exactly that way.

> If you are interested in seeing the results - you can check out

All I see here is a tool that downloads and builds everything and shows the
result as a nice HTML page. This is more like Mozilla's Tinderbox and yes,
it is also needed. 

As far as I can tell, each of these projects would also need to be
standalone to build with what you are showing here. This does nothing to
solve the CJAN (the right acronym) issues.

You also don't have the source code available to this system available
anywhere I can see. :-(

> From 1988 to 1998 I worked on proprietary configuration management systems
> for IBM.  My experience with open source is not limited to Java projects -
> it includes C/C++ projects which require even more discipline.

Sam, I know you have a long history in computing and are very smart, but I
still haven't seen a solution to the problem.

> But for now Jon, you win.  Enjoy.

I only win because there isn't a good solution.

How about building something that goes along with the proposal that I
suggested? I liked the suggestions people made to the proposal. So far
though no one has really bitten on it though which makes me sad.

I would adopt CJAN for all of my projects in a heartbeat if it solved the
problem. I'm still not sure how you are going to be able to be able to solve
it by only running Ant once though. I think it will take one run to download
everything and then another to actually build.


twice of not very much is still a lot more than not very much

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